If You're Not With Them, You're Against Them: The End Of Debates
Posted: Saturday, December 12, 2009
by Michael Ramzy
delusionthread.com
Every now and then a story or series of stories crosses the television (or computer) screen wh
ich makes me stop and think, 'boy, this is really getting out of hand'. The last time was during the election, specifically between the Obama camp and the Clinton camp. The vitriol, conflicting 'facts' and outright pettiness stained what would otherwise have been a healthy, even robust debate of two individuals sharing a common goal, yet different paths to that goal.
These days, of course, we hear all the time how one side is so right, the other side is either delusional or evil. Not misinformed, not un-educated as to the facts, but actually evil. Here are a few examples:
Climate Change E-mails: This was a huge story, then it disappeared because of lack of actual evidence of 'tampering'. The facts are a number of emails were hacked in which climatologists were . . . 'generous' with their interpretation of the data. The AP broke a story today in which 1073 emails were read and reread by five reporters, and no actual evidence of lying was found. Sure, this won't satisfy those opposed to the climate change (warming, cooling, rotating, you know what I mean) movement, and in fact it looks pretty bad since scientists like to be taken seriously since they deal with facts and not 'generous interpretations', but the untold story of this debacle is how the climatologists hold the skeptics in such disdain, calling them 'ignorant' and 'evil'. The skeptics call the climatologists 'liars' and 'junk scientists'. Why not have the skeptics present their facts, and the climatologists present their facts (the actual facts, not a generous interpretation), and see what happens? Too simple? Perhaps.
Health Care: This is in the news a lot, and will continue to be until the American people get bored (which is probably already happening) or until this thing passes. The facts are hard to come by, but not because neither side is trying, but because this bill is so huge and so full of earmarks and other things which have nothing to do with health care, it's impossible to not be confused. Those on the left call those on the right unfeeling, uncaring, and in some cases, killers (remember the placard in the House chamber which had the Republican health plan? The plan was 'Die Quickly'.). Those on the right call the left Socialists, too much in bed with the lawyers (since tort reform is apparently off the table, again), and lovers of big government. No matter where you stand on this issue, it's impossible to have a serious discussion about it since both sides believe in the 'with us or against us' mentality. How about a pared-down plan without earmarks which gives everyone the option to get insurance in some way, without killing the middle-class or skinning the rich? Not possible? Really? Medicaid and Medicare were possible (and only in trouble now because of the corruption and waste in the system), so what's the problem? Oh, that's right: no time for debate because of the 'with us or against us' both sides feel.
Afghanistan: This one is really a doozy in that no one is happy with Mr. Obama's plan, apparently. The right bemoans any timetable, saying it gives the enemy time to hunker down and wait us out. The left hates the fact this war is still being waged. Both sides seem intractable, especially in that the anti-war crowd (not the same as the peace-loving crowd) sees everyone who talks about war as a means to an end as evil, and the hawks see anyone who speaks of non-war as ignorant and downright delusional. No time for debate here as both sides believe it is as apples and motorcycles: not much common ground at all.
I remember when it was possible to have a discussion with someone about something and, using facts to support the argument, the worst that could happen is that you would agree to disagree. These days it seems you need no facts at all, just raw emotion (look at the protesters at the climate conference - what are they really protesting? Or at any political convention) and a bullhorn. If you need to come to a debate or discussion with anything other than facts, you are already lost and your message becomes tainted or laughable. Climate change, war, health care: these are serious issues which we as Americans need to understand as we go forward. The old saying, 'Don't shoot the messenger', is as true now as ever before: Listen to the facts, not the 'generous interpretations'. Read the health care bill, read up on climate change and Man's influence on his environment, read the history of Afghanistan and specifically our involvement there in the past eight years.
Only then will you have the facts. Only then can you form an opinion. And, thus armed, only then can you discuss and debate the issues.
'If you're not with us, you're against us' is not an argument and it is not a 'stance'. It is a poor substitute for the truth. This is something we should always remember.
This Article has been viewed 1,999 times. (Not updated in real-time.)
Top-level comments on this article: (7 total)Michael, this was awesome! I loved it when you repeated, 'with us or against us'I had a phone conversation with a sister of mine last weekend about how I never believe and trust in things, and how I always "rant" on about providing facts. Then she began to insult me and bringing up my past - whereas I had to hang up.I later wrote an email reminding her that if she were innocent of a charge of murder and standing trial, she would surely want THE FACTS. I added, "Sometimes our lives depend on facts," but for her there was, "no time for debate." How sad to see people so ignorant and yet "believe" themselves to be so right!And she still thinks she is right. She's a Christian and believes all we need is faith, and everything will always turn out fine in the end. It's like she has this mentality that research is for weaklings and trust in God is of "higher importance and intelligence."I also enjoyed the 'with us or against us' quote. Remember Bush after 9/11 with his international mantra? "If you're not with us on fighting terrorism, then you are against us." What mindlessness!Since when is there only one view or the other? Throughout my life I have seen family and friends feud over many things, yet I never felt the need to join forces with one side or the other. Simply put, they were two sides that needed to work out THEIR differences maturely.Thanks for your kind comments and for reading. I don't mind there being only one view or another, but at least there should be a discussion of the facts. Thanks again.
Well, the United States is primarily ruled by people who believe in an imaginary magician in the sky in which everyone should have "faith", and that being intellectual somehow means being stupid.There are people in this country that talk about science as if it's evil, willfully ignorant to the fact that science, by definition, can't be evil. In fact, willful ignorance has become the primary value of many people in this country, and those who are not willfully ignorant are called socialists and, again, evil.So, basically, they've taken their favorite part about organized religion (the fact that they don't have to think and are told who is evil and bad by someone else) and distilled everything else down to that level. It's not really all that surprising.
Excellent article, excellent content, unfortunate that those who will read it probably either already see all of this, or will put their fingers in their ears and LALALALALA all the way back to the bible study section.
Yet it's much more than that, unfortunately. You bring up some interesting points, yet remember both sides put their fingers in their ears for the simple reason they are right and the other side is wrong. No room for discussion, just that. We as a nation are suffering from an entitlement mentality and a reality show environment in which everything is concrete: For example: if you are labeled a democrat, you are automatically a sheep. If you are labeled a republican, you are automatically a war-monger. Religion plays a very small (yet sometimes important, I'll grant you that) part in the divisiveness of this country. It is more based on political ideology, the haves (or rather the 'can gets') against the have-nots (or can't get, or won't get). Thanks for your comments, and for reading.
And the question is WHERE do you go to find out truth? And how do you know when you find it...Good and well written piece! MarijoAye, thar's the rub! These days it's hard to find especially since there seems to be so many 'versions'. Thanks for reading and commenting.
RIGHT ON, Monsieur Tree Hugger!Just kidding! I love how you always hear "We need to move away from partisan politics! Our country needs the (insert "other"party here) to come to the table, " blah, blah, blah.Great article, Michael. Write On!Everyone bemoans party politics until they get into power, it seems. Both parties have pretty much merged into one as far as getting things done, or rather, as far as not getting much of anything done. And yes, it's always the other party's fault. Go figure.Thanks for stopping by as always.
Great topic to bring up. I do not even "debate" certain individuals who have shown through past behavior that their minds are really closed, they feel they are completely right no matter what anyone says AND who feel anyone with a differing opinion is less, ignorant, biased, etc. Reasonable people can accomplish anything and I believe there are many folks moving in that healthy direction. Again, in my opinion a great topic and well done.
Reasonable people can get beyond pettiness and debate the facts, I agree. And yet it seems there are less of these kinds of people in Washington. Either they get swallowed up by 'the system' or, more likely, they just don't care about their country as much as they care about their own 'power' and prestige among those in their own party (or clique). Thanks for reading and commenting, sir.
We want your comments! If you can read this, you don't have javascript enabled, so you can't use this comment system. Please enable javascript.